Greetings and Salutations!
OK… Drone Defense.
MANY problems exist in the Drone Arena of Warfare. FAR too many for but a single Infantryman who got MedRet in 1999 to go over, but I do have some ideas. It helps that I think outside of the box on so many things, as my time as a Contractor in Iraq it was damned near a full time gig of “Adapt, Improvise and Overcome” lest you be caught with your britches around your ankles and your pud in yer fist.
There’s a LOT of different ideas being put out there.
First and foremost are from the GIANT Defense Contractors who never met a problem that they couldn’t find an answer to via throwing HUUUUUGE gobs of dinero at it…
Bloom County did a couple or so strips about the Strategic Defense Initiative or SDI under Reagan that mentioned this exact issue:
Opus et. al. ‘jumped on the DotGov Gravy Train’ and then were unexpectedly expected to produce results… queue mayhem after the fact…
The “Space Defense Gizmo” that Opus is referring to ends up being a ‘belt’ of woven together $100 bills three feet thick in a 100 foot high wall that both encircles and orbits the Earth, thereby stopping any Rooskie Missiles from getting thru to ‘Murica!!!
So yeah, High Tech?
So far, not so mucho.
Not that I can actually see
So Far.
All the shytte I’m seeing so far positively reeks of a “Bloom County” level of stoopid-expenditure with very little actual return… Go figure Aye?
‘Stuff’ so far that DotBigMilCon (rather appropriate as it stands for Dot Big Military Contractors, “Con” being the functional definition) are man-portable ‘weapons’ like these:
Uhhhh
Yeeeeeah….
I sure as Fuck don’t want to be “That Guy” humping that… and IF they were to go that route, well “That Guy” would have to be one in every. single. Infantry. Squad. which would designate him a number one priority target. That particular one is called a Droneshield DroneGun Mk111. A 40+ pound ‘gun’ of dubious use and funtionality…
Considering something like that being carried by a troop on the Front Line is going to positively scream “SHOOT ME FIRST!!!!”
I can’t even imagine the weight of it, never mind the battery pack to power that monstrosity. BTW, ZERO mention of that in ANY article about it…. Jes’ Sayin’
And let me tell you this’s the Dot Big Mil Con’s best idea!!!! THIS is what they’re planning on running with with each unit expected to be just under $100k per ‘gun’… which IRL means about a quarter million per unit, plus cost plus and maintenance expenses…
I mean how in the fuck do they actually expect a Grunt to fire and maneuver with such a heavy and probably useless piece of ElephantGear? It’s pure vaporware. It has an expected range of 2.5 kilometers, which sounds great on paper. However when you take into account that some of the larger drones in the Krain, on both sides, the ones that take out tanks and Infantry are about at maximum are at absolute most no larger than two square feet in height and diameter, and are only audible up until the last minute or so… So… that means that roughly Visually if you’re lucky as fuck you might see a ‘speck’ in the distance…. HOWEVER: by the time you actually visually identify a drone???
If you see a drone, you’re already beans on toast Fren.
Drone Warfare is literally “The Quick and The Dead”
And all the high end Boutique Wunderwaffen?
Like the SmartRounds Inc., who makes the SAVAGE (Smart Anti-Vehicle Aerial Guided Engagement) anti-drone rocket???
At $200k a pop???
Yeah… tell me again how great the Patriot PAC 3 is again?
2.5 million a round
We knew the Iranian Strike on Al U-Deide was coming. We evacc’d everyone so as to NOT have casualties. We shot off, with the Qataris OVER 65 Patriot Block 3 production missiles at $2.5 million a shot (+/-)
And MISSED the SINGLE Iranian Ballistic Missile ANYWAYS!!!
Riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiight.
Tell me again how awesome our DotMil tech is again?
See, Ivan ‘went back to basics’
They went and asked for, and got volunteers from ALL the Russian Summer Olympic Trap/Skeet Shooting Teams and set them up to train common Grunts in ‘how to kill drones’. It’s been an exceptionally successful program from what intel I’ve gathered. The former positively jumped at the idea…
They started off training the troops to become efficient in shooting skeet with semiautomatic 12 gauge shotguns. 26 inch barrels to start, as that’s the optimal length. Then they worked them up so it becomes damned near reflexive. Once they passed the skeet/trap part of the course, THEN they introduced drones.
They started off with slow, man-guided drones… none of which have any real capacity (outside of getting close enough to cause a ‘fail’ on the testing) to do harm, and then in the next evolution, they eventually worked up to real-life Mavic Drones carrying simulated deadly charges that have a significantly reduced charge…
One that ‘marks the fail’ so to speak with colored powder when it ‘blows up’ thereby showing that the individual in question failed in their mission to stop the drone by ‘coloring them’ with the powder… pink being one of the more popular ‘marks of shame.’ gets recycled from my understanding. Because they’re a wee bit more expensive, (a DJI Mavic runs/retails for about $600) the charge doesn’t ‘kill’ the drone necessarily during training UNLESS the student ‘wins’ and takes out the drone so to speak.
The point is they’re willing to lose a drone via the student’s live fire, but NOT if they fail. IF the student successfully blows the drone away, then it’s money well spent… if they fail, then the drone can be reutilized on another student/trainee.
And as and Aside: Shame is a great motivator in the DotMil, no matter what nationality you are… coming off the range, covered in pink powder proving you failed? Yeah…. IF they think you can do better and recycle you, well I bet you’ll make it the second time around rather than embarrass yourself….
Another thing the Russians have been finally utilizing is what -I- told them they needed to be using back many months ago, and that was the KS23 Shotgun:
The KS23 was/is a four round capacity pump action Anti-Riot Riot Shotgun designed and built in the early 70s. It is well known for its utterly INSANE caliber, firing essentially what is a 23 mm round… which makes it roughly a 4 gauge using European standards. That makes it the making it the largest-bore shotgun in modern use.
Fuck My/Your Shoulder Aye?
Or in the case of having no stock, your palm.
FFS they made it using failed 23mm Anti-Aircraft Machine gun barrels in the whole nature of Ivan’s “Waste Not, Want Not” proclivities… Ivan throws NOTHING away if he can help it… hence the size/name/caliber of this beast. It fires non-lethal (why bother?), buckshot (oh that must suck) and fucking slugs although what sort of target needs a 23mm Deer-Slug?!?!?!
That’s one fucking deer I never want to meet up with…
Armed or Unarmed…
A Siberian/Mongolian Man Eating Death Deer maybe?
Jes’ Sayin’
No fuckin’ thanks brohiem.
Now, as far as (and I know this’s going to go over like the proverbial lead balloon,) but I have a COTS idea that could be implemented right here, and right now… As I discussed with Herschel last evening or the night before…
My Idea utilizes pre-existing stuff… In this case it’d be the M7/M243 LVOSS or Light Vehicle Obscuration Smoke System to dispense an anti-drone package. The anti-drone rounds would be new, but easily and cheaply made/manufatured.
I make my own ‘timed/fused’ fireworks legally here for holidays for my 37mm Launcher… If -I- can make them here, utilizing a glue gun, some black powder, and learning how to time my visco?
So easy, even an Airborne Infantryman can do it LOL.
As it is, currently, the LVOSS is/was used to ‘throw mad amounts of smoke’ in Iraq and Afghanistan during ‘negative crowd issues’ i.e. protests and/or riots. The launchers themselves individually look like this:
A lot of you probably remember them. I saw them very frequently in Iraq on the roof(s) of primarily MP (Mil Police) vehicles and the like, in clusters:
Usually 2x launchers, like that, facing outward. They generally were on all four corners of the roof(s) of the Gun Trucks with 2x per, with a total of 8 launchers available… They usually looked like this:
(In this case there’s only one launcher per corner… hey, it’s a websearch man… I do what I can w/what I got…)
Now the round used in those launchers? They’re the L8 Smoke Round that has a makeup like this (cutaway pic so you know of what I speak):
Each tube on a M7 launch tube is 66mm in diameter wide round, and about 5.75 inches (the round itself) in the pic above long… meaning the overall length is about 7.28 inches long, but the Boomy-Boom part of the round itself is about 5.75 inches by 66mm which is 2.6 inches wide. The round has the capacity in that picture of having a 19oz payload…
Remove that Red Phosphorous/Butyl Rubber Smoke Composition?
Replace that and Load the shell with #4 Turkey Shot?
Well the payload for the above-stated round is 19 ounces.
The math said a comparable 19-ounce load of #4 lead shot would contain approximately 2,584 pellets. #4 lead shot contains about 136 pellets per ounce. Therefore, 19 ounces * 136 pellets/ounce equals roughly 2584 pellets.
THAT is a LOT of pellets IMO.
Each M7 launcher holds 4 rounds.
That’d put about a little less that 10000 #4 Turkey Shot Pellets out there
ALL at once.
LITERALLY A CLOUD of #4 shot out to about 100 yards +/-
ALLLLL it takes is ONE PELLET to hit a rotor
Game Over at that point.
Multiply Times ‘however many’ drones may be coming in? I mean c’mon…. 10,000 #4 shot? In ONE ‘shewtin’ match’ so to speak? That’s all she wrote. As I said, All it takes is ONE pellet on a rotor or whatnot to bring down a drone…
This’s the best route to go IMO, because they’re PRE-EXISTING tech means just re-ramping the loadout for the rounds themselves. Add on that they cane be reloaded BY THE GUYS DRIVING THE TRUCKS instead of needing some aftermarket Contractor Contact Team???
Driver: “Hey, we shot down another drone, launcher #3 is dry”
TC looks up to the Gunner: “Yo man… When we stop, reload #3… I think the reloads are under my porn-stash-ammo can…”
Gunner: “Roger.. got it.”
Win-Win I think to myself.
Of course watch this happen exactly as I describe it, and I get fucked out of the idea, as it ALWAYS happens…. The Penta-gram has bounty payments for ‘stuff’ like this, but you never hear about guys like, the real ‘thinkers’ getting paid nor credit for stuff like this…
So that’s episode for tonight.
Your Thoughts?
More Later
BCE
What’s the smallest drones made? How small do you see them in, say, 5 years? Does the tech exist currently to fly them in formation, guided by one alpha drone? I’m thinking a vertical formation, or even a 3d formation, drones less than the size of a quarter, maybe even a dime, same theory as the turkey shot, but semi smart, hunter killer type. Testing determines the optimal shape and spread patterns of the vertical formation, diamond, square, circle , etc., distance between each drone, like a net, except made of drones. With the alpha out front doing the tracking/targeting, and the 3 or 4 hundred suicide drones doing the wet work. Am I getting ahead of tech currently available? Cost effective? Feel free to pick it apart. I know zero about drones, other than some of the video you posted. Are there semi autonomous, programmable drones or are all the ones with the explosives attached remotely controlled? Too many variables for my brain.
I think you’re on the right track here.
Just a few weeks ago, we saw some spectacular drone shows on the 4th. Hundreds of drones synchronized to each other, creating breathtaking aerial shows.
One can imagine a cloud of these, so to speak, near the AO. Control them via radar/AI/visually….whatever and send those after incoming drones.
As stated, merely dinging the rotors on drones is enough to disrupt their flight. The cloud of friendly drones could be least expensive ones available.
Talk to the folks who put on these shows for the 4th of July celebrations.
And two minutes after posting, I trip across this:
https://x.com/Defence_Index/status/1944887484631965821?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1944887484631965821%7Ctwgr%5Ebb1834fbbf55b52962ec3ce7826fd5c9b8e424c0%7Ctwcon%5Es1_c10&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fncrenegade.com%2F
No idea if it works, if it exists or if it’s just some defense contractors wet dream, but it sounds cool.
OK, why are all the pistol holders left handed, and why does the one in the light brown shirt have two right hands?
Saw that as well. Lolz
You are focusing on light weapons mainly to protect infantry and light vehicles from smaller drones.
That is definitely part of the puzzle.
However there are the bigger drones that go after tanks and armored vehicles.
I have heard that the Russians have used the latest version of the ZSU-23-4 Shilka anti aircraft gun to take these bigger drones out.
For the US I was thinking why not mount one of the Navy’s CIWS guns on a chassis and use that to take out drones ?
BCE,
Those guys with the sci fi looking anti-drone tools…. when they turn them ON, they are telling the enemy where they are. It is like 2 guys having a gunfight in a blacked out room, each has a pistol and a flashlight. Turn on the anti drone device is like turning a flashlight on. Other guy sees you and game over. He does not even need a flashlight. It is an imperfect analogy, but it gets the basics across. We could talk about superheterodyne effects, that the device probably stays in a “standby” mode, leaking RF… but we are not going to do that.
I like your idea that you present here. Keep in mind that a lot of UKR/Rooskie drones are not coming in at a steep angle, they are shallow angle (it is my unhealthy coping mechanism/hobby to watch a lot of these videos). These smoke projectors are going for loft. Maybe mount them on an adjustable bracket (somehow electrically slewed, elevated/depressed?)
There is a Russian system called DROZD, which is an active system and there is what the troops call “Kostecki” (Russian for “dice”, or говорит). Kostecki are cassettes filled with explosive that, when hit by something like a PG-7 warhead interrupt the blast with a counter blast. Its a tough problem, especially if you are the grunts on foot near the vehicles when these systems go off. If a lot of vehicles have these systems, accompanying ground troops will be VERY wary of being close by.
The rise of the small drone is disrupting things far more than people think they are. I suspect that a lot of doctrine is going to have to get changed. With that doctrine, will come force design and the whole DOTLMPF https://ssl.armywarcollege.edu/dde/learningmodules/jsps/terms/DOTMLPF.cfm
Agreed. It is still good idea but it only covers one aspect and you loose the smoke.
The scary ones are the ones that may in wait the pop up and get you
I have always said, it is gonna be the duck hunters that will be the premier drone killers…
Something like the CIWS for larger vehicles, relatively short range acoustic &radar sensors and effective to about 100 yards. 3 barrel Gatling or belt fed and 10 gauge goose loads, as those are already available and fairly well developed. Design it so it can be depressed enough and it’s useful for anti-personnel as well.
For the infantry, shot shell rounds for the M203? And perhaps one guy per squad with the shotgun, again 10 gauge but semiauto although they weigh a lot, the semi auto will be kinder/gentler in the recoil.
If steel pellets don’t offer the range, tungsten-iron or tungsten polymer works well. I’ve pulled a fair number of geese down at 40 yards with 2 3/4” tungsten -poly #4 and #6.
I like the idea, shotguns make sense and BIG shotguns make more sense. Double tapping the above comment about shallow angles, war porn videos sometimes show drones only a foot or so above the road. They often attack the wheels, especially on cars and pickups. Next, this could be PR, gathering footage for combat Tik-Toks, but Russian drones seem to work in pairs, one observing, one striking, but I bet that observer drone has a warhead too and can finish off an immobilized vehicle. As to the sound signature, see the video of two Russian joes who took out a UKR drone with…scissors. They hid in the weeds as it flew past, then jumped out and cut the fiber optic cable. As it went by, it was pretty loud. Keep thinking, maybe buckshot rounds for a MK 19? Probably suitable for vehicles or fixed emplacements. Glad to see your spirits have kept up from the past few posts!
You are an evil genius. I approve.
In Rhodesia they had the “spider”. A hand cranked multibarrel shotgun mounted on the roof of a vehicle.
Basically a round device with 16 barrels welded to each side, front and back.
When the floppies tried an ambush you spun the hand crank in that direction and it fired a 12 gauge broadside aimed both for close and distance using buckshot.
A really simple and potent device.
Something similar may prove useful in our situation.
I doubt that you would see a dime from DotMil about your idea. However, if you ever sell tshirts that say ” Siberian/Mongolian Man Eating Death Deer ” With a picture of a wendigo on it I will take two.
back in the summer of 78. I was with the team testing out the Carl Gustaf 84mm recoilless rocket launcher. FUN, no really it was. anyway. it was hands down way better than anything we had at that time. smaller, easier to carry and use. optic sight backed up with iron sights even.
and they had like a dozen different rounds for it too. all sorts of shit. anti tank, beehive round
something like a distance mine even. you set the range and it would blow downward I think.
anyway, come “show day” 3 army generals and 2 Marine ones in the stands watching us put it thru
the paces like. well, the Marine generals watched. the army clowns didn’t even care.
the two Marine generals got down in the dirt and fired it themselves. asked us what we thought of it.
TOOK OUT NOTE BOOKS AND WROTE IT DOWN. never saw that before?? they asked us. and wrote down what we thought about it. we all thought it was a slam dunk. it was great system, great ammo
and COST EFFECTIVE TOO. we never heard why. but they bought the Dragon weapon system instead.
by 1981 I think it was. and the price we hear it was like 5 grand a round or something like that.
so. image how I felt in 2004 or so watching the “news” and seeing some video clip of SF troops using
the Carl G in the “stan” and saying just how wonderful it was for the mission.
I talked to one Dragon “gunner” and he told me he never even fired it. just training whatever.
the Carl G had a sub caliber round that fired a 7.62 round !
funny, you never hear anything anymore about the Dragon weapon system.
I read somewhere the sight on it was like 20-25 grand ? WTF???
so, yeah. I have no problem at all thinking the DOT-GOV’T buys worthless shit that does not work.
I used to have the knife they gave us after it was done until my kid found it with my other shit.
he got into everything I had. and I have no idea what he did with it all too. damn asshole!
so. yeah, they buy some worthless junk at a unreal price that will not work at all.
just you watch and see. fucking DOT-GOVT assholes
one thing I forgot about the Carl G. the round carriers. they could be attached to your ruck with ease.
and they made great wine cooler/carriers too ! but they only held about 3 cans of beer with ice. X 2
had a couple of them for years until the Ex I think it was tossed them.
but they where great though. plastic and water tight. nice handle too.
These are fine for the small hunter/killer drones…however, the targets for HK drones are often found by the ISR drones, which are bigger and fly well out of range of such systems. If an ISR operator loses HK drones, swarms of HKs and/or arty is inbound. Might buy enough time to disperse; might not. And the racing drones…holy shit.
The environment you are talking about is essentially a full spectrum unmanned air force in miniature. It is already at the point where some countries are fighting other people’s manned navies or air forces with drone fleets and air wings. It is probably well past time for big navy and big AF to fully adapt.
The anti-drone “guns” I have seen are all really just radio systems with directional antenna that overwhelm the drone control frequency. They are dressed up like “guns” with a shoulder stock to give the impression that they are something besides what they really are, a radio and directional antenna. That monstrosity in the photograph is probably just a plastic encased Yagi antenna, an internal radio transmitter with power supply and a selector switch to change frequencies. Most of the expense in this system is hiding the off the shelf components inside plastic external shell and adding a shoulder stock. Pure military industrial complex gold if you can sell it.
It probably makes sense to start allocating a radio SIGINT team to the infantry platoon headquarters section that is equipped with broad spectrum analyzers to detect radio controlled drones and other radio-electronic threats and directional transmitters to defend. It is probably time to have a shotgunner in each squad as well.
They are not going to do “cheap and effective”. No pork to be siphoned off into crooked pockets and bank accounts. So they WILL go VERY expensive and of dubious utility. So they can revisit the “problem” repeatedly and siphon off tax dollars repeatedly. Military procurement and weapons development is not and has never been about effectiveness. It’s always been about “get rich quick” for those connected to the politicians.
Did you see the video where the guys were being hunted by a fiber optic controlled one and the guy dumps his pack and runs out with scissors and cuts the fiber optic line after it had passed them?
How about placing hundreds of your favorite dictaster look-a-like blowup dolls/animatronic targets (like game wardens use), standing adjacent to a fake diplomatic looking vehicles. Broadcast a secret meeting location/time on a seldom used frequency, just like a coyote call. Place drone killers close by to ambush the drones. Scatter throughout the country and have a turkey shoot. Won’t work too many times, but sounds cool. Hahahahahaha
How fast can those fiber optic control cables melt? Would a fireball from fuel air mix melt the fiber optic cable and stop control? Maybe a drone controlled Flammenwerfer behind the enemy drones to sever the cables?
The cables may be an easier target. (I don’t know I am in my armchair.)
Trademarked idea doth follow. T-shirt cannon loaded with a bait fish net. They make Gatlin gun t-shirt cannons
This may work.
https://x.com/Defence_Index/status/1944887484631965821
Perhaps our high-flying drones could assist in some way.
The best drone killer is another drone. Its like WW1 all over again.
How in hell does that Mk111 work? RF? W-T-A-F? (over)