Greetings and Salutations!
OK
Tonight: The SIG P320.
A) Don’t Own One
B) If you DO Own One Get Rid of It ASAFP
C) Thatisall.
In all seriousness…
This’s not a joke.
Besides the “Cult of Sig” kids, I don’t know about you, but ANY striker-fired handgun with a track record like this would have been forcibly pulled from the market via some DotGov Agency LONG AGO.
Per a guy I really respect, Brandon Herrera, former candidate for Congress this last time around, his “Gun Meme Review” today regarding the P320 is worth the watch:
As Brandon called it The Cult of Sig… well I grabbed the Reddit screengrab he used:
If that isn’t beyond ‘fanboi’ level behavior and edging into “Cult Worship” I have no idea…
It’s a damned shame that it’s going this way.
I also believe that there are major reasons that no regulatory Agency for the DotGov has stepped in, and one of the BIG REASONS I’d say it’s corruption.
Money Talks.
After all, Sig, despite it’s nominal subpar performance and known issue(s) has managed to ‘corner the DotMil Marketplace’ on not only the M-17/M-18 (which is what the Army/Air Force respectively gave as nomenclatures to the P320) but also the next generation of DotMil Combat Rifles and Squad Automatics.
One of these being the SIG MCX Spear, which has been adopted by the U.S. military as the XM7, replacing the M4 carbine in close-quarters combat roles. Now I’ve gone over this particular Piece of Dreck in now-nuked content, but essentially, the .277 SIG Fury (6.8x51mm) round that it’s chambered in, and the subsequent ‘two cartridge solution’ (meaning them having one bi-metallic combat load with INSANE chamber pressure and the ‘practice round’ with significantly lower chamber pressure) meant that long term, the DotMil, specifically the Army was going to find itself really fucked if they deploy these steaming hunks of over-engineered bullshit devices.
Problem being is training on a low pressure round is FAR different from a ‘hot’ combat round. Train like you fight right? Unless it’s a Sig, where a combat round (using my OWN extensive intel on throat erosion/barrel wear) is that a XM-7 would need a barrel after about 3-4000 rounds MAX.
Good for the company
Moneywise.
ABSOLUTE SHIT for readiness.
Trust me… I did the Depot Level Thang for 2 years
I serviced REGULAR rifles that (M-4/M16A2) that were on a ‘waiting list’ for a year plus ‘cos there was only one of me for the entire state. Never mind parts…
Imagine how bad it’d be if every. single. unit. needed new barrels within a year/year and a half, as some units qualify quarterly, and some SpecOps kid shoot weekly.
Never mind the five fucking pound all-in-one-point-of-failure scope that EACH XM-7 is supposed to have… a 5 pound battery run monstrosity that I’d say would probably shit the bed under just normal Infantry use, never mind extreme use. Let’s not even go into the 80,000 pounds per square inch chamber pressure of the round… the very fact that’ll literally burn the barrel out of a rifle like that so fucking quickly?
Yeeeeeeeeeeaaaaah… I smell former DotMil General Occifer Fuckery Afoot as far the procurement process goes. I wonder who got the payoff and what no-show position he/she got.
I mean lets face it
The fucking DotGov does recalls for products for faaaaar lesser issues. Case in point, those ‘magnetic bead’ toys a few years back? I can’t remember the name but one kid choked to death, and a few were injured and it was NATIONWIDE RECALL!!!! DO NOT USE!!!! DISPOSE OF AT ALL COSTS!!!! 24-7.
And people did.
Now granted, this was because a kid died.
HOWEVER
They did the same thing with that Hot-Pot Cooking thing that killed some poor bastard while cooking ramen. It overheated, detonated and kil’t the poor sumbitch. Again: NATIONWIDE RECALL!!!! DO NOT USE!!!! DISPOSE OF AT ALL COSTS!!!! 24-7.
Now?
In the case of Sig?
Well…
Over 100 cases of absolutely known AD (accidental discharge) incidents resulting in near-fatal outcomes. ONE known death as of now.
TONS of anecdotal evidence.
To include one of the most damning:
A relatively known unknown YouTuber called “Wyoming Gun Project” who now has a shit-ton of views due to his experimentation with the Sig P320. He essentially used a wood-screw to put literally .68mm of pressure on the hammer, and then manipulated the slide (very slightly in many cases) and got 5 Accidental Discharges!!!
.68mm of trigger pressure?
Considering a LOT of holsters utilize a trigger-based ‘pressure retention’ to keep the fucking gun in the holster? Yeeeeeah… I think Ole Boy is on to something…
Jes’ Sayin’
But as I was raging about, I find it extremely interesting that NO DotGov AGency has forced a recall………….
YET.
BUT!
The reason for that? Huh…
Funny that innit?
Let’s examine it…
I mean under normal circumstances…
ESPECIALLY with the overwhelming “anti-gun DotGov” that we have in general? You’d think they’d be tripping over each other to issue a recall for an eeee-vil handgun…
Add on the whole DotGov thing of “We back the Blue!!!” (i.e. Cops in general) and the fact that the MAJORITY of woundings have been cops on duty hit by their fucking service P320?
Seems a bit odd that Aye?
Add on the ‘other moves’ that Sig has been doing like suing the Police forces and others who refuse to allow the use of the P320? Like as in ‘doubling down on stupid’?
Well…. I’ll let THIS speak for itself:
“Deflect and make counter-accusations”
All I can say is:
Suing those who go against your narrative?
Sounds very familiar.
(Possibly) Leveraging blackmail potentially to make sure your filthy lucre keeps flowing no matter the human cost (after all they’re only goyim)?
Sounds extremely familiar….
Yep.
So on that note… I’ll leave it to you to decide.
More Later
Big Country
ICE or BP did a recall on the 320s a week or two ago and commanded that G19s be issued. It was a short blurb and for rhe life of me I can’t find it in my feeds. I knew then that Sig was cooked.
Fwiw, reads like the p320 isn’t striker fired, it is and fully cooked vs. Glocks partial.
P320 was repacking of the hammer fired p250, which I didn’t care for but understand the concept… p250 followed the sp2022/sp2009 with the former being adopted by us army tank command and border patrol or similar entity, and latter being in French police and/or military service. Minimal differences between sp2022 and 2009
What’s odd is that sig discontinued the sp2022 in 2019 or 2020 but new models are available for sale again… maybe just b/c california compliant but could be more to it… regardless, sp2022 would not have won the US army contract but I believe it superior to both 250 and 320 in most if not all respects that matter to me.
Ymmv
Air Force Global Strike Command Force. Tried to copy it here but couldn’t.
Sigs are starting to make Hi Point look top tier.
Hi Point didn’t copy Remington triggers.
They wanted a high power long range round after finding the M4 inadequate for trashcanistan. So what was wrong with the .308?
All The More Reason To Ditch Plastic Craptastic And Get A 1911!!1!!1!
I Open Carry My 1911 Unloaded (I Obey ALL The Laws) And Have NEVER Had It Go Off1!!1!!!!
Friends don’t let friends buy plastic guns.
Spot on, as usual. My MOS was 45B. My hitch was with the 156th Maintenance Company in Nürnberg, ’74-’77. Parts? Like pulling teeth. Command attitude was “Don’t worry. If the balloon goes up, THEN we will get tons of support”. Right. Readiness? Our standing joke was that if the Russians hit the Fulda Gap
at 24:00 hours, we could all meet for breakfast at the mess hall. The more things change, the more they stay the same.
AMEN Brother!
Cohen. Cohen. Cohen. Cohen.
Sounds about right for this scheme.
never liked striker fired weapons myself. old school enough to want to see a hammer on my weapons.
besides, most of my Sigs where made in West Germany other than my 716 rifle. piston that is.
I didn’t like some of the changes they made on 226s that I looked at after they started making them here. anyway. doesn’t matter what I think. if there money to be made, they do it. regardless of how it effects the end user. and you right about that “new ” Sig round 277 fury ? right. what is the point of that stupid shit anyway? wouldn’t it be cheaper to use 7.62 NATO rounds and use some sort of harden
metal as core in a AP round instead of a whole new rifle and round ?
BTW, what was wrong with the M9 anyway ? never fired one, but I have shot a 92 model and it worked just fine.
the m9 lacks a bottom rail and optics platform and night sights. beretta offered to add those at minimal cost but somebody wanted a shiny new gun instead. in fact they wanted a shiny new round too, but couldn’t find any to meet criteria. the search went on for several years/billions until big daddy trump won and they had to quit the theatrics and hand sig the money b4 he took office.
It’s a tragedy a kid died because if this, but the one thing NO ONE is speaking of? The 600 lb gorilla in tge room? WHY did this kid, supposedly trained, qualified AND proficient in handling small arms, have the MUZZLE OF A LOADED, LOCKED & COCKED WEAPON, REGARDLESS OF TYPE, POINTED ANYWHERE OTHER THAN A SAFE DIRECTION? Turn it 90 degrees left or right and everyone’s alive. They may be having to change their skivvies, but they’re alive. Leave it on your duty belt where it belongs and everyone’s alive. SIG undoubtedly has a major issue with this piece of junk, but there appears to be a troubling complacency with a lack of basic firearms handling in this unit.
If the IG & AFOSI gang doing the investigation are worth a damn, they’ll look at the human factors side of this incident. F E Warren is a missile wing. Kid was probably posted at the guard shack at a silo out in Nowhere, Montana, where nothing ever happens and no one ever shows up. Standard procedure is to download your duty belt onto the desk cuz it’s uncomfortable, then reload it all at shift change. “That’s the way we’ve always done it and Sarge said it was OK anyway…” That’s called “Norms” in the aviation world human factors Dirty Dozen & it’s killed more than a few of my friends over the last half century. I won’t give odds that shows up as a finding on the incident report.
Word is the kid took his duty belt off, and as he dropped it (still in holster) on the desk after work (as I did many times myself w/an M-9), it discharged into his chest….
I’d say no fault on the kid’s side
Fair enough. I do the same with my EDC gear, I just make damn sure that big ass hole in the end is pointed away from me when I do. I haven’t seen anything on this other than all the pointing at SIG. I truly believe they have a serious problem with the 320 & they’re likely culpable in this one. Just hadn’t heard anything else. I’m no where near as plugged in as you are; one of the many reasons I come here.
” WHY did this kid, supposedly trained, qualified AND proficient in handling small arms, have the MUZZLE OF A LOADED, LOCKED & COCKED WEAPON, REGARDLESS OF TYPE, POINTED ANYWHERE OTHER THAN A SAFE DIRECTION?”
Very good points.
I looked online to see exactly who the Airman was.
https://www.msn.com/en-us/lifestyle/lifestyle-buzz/he-was-a-friend-to-everyone-greenville-airman-dies-after-firearm-discharge-incident/ar-AA1Ji5PH?apiversion=v2&noservercache=1&domshim=1&renderwebcomponents=1&wcseo=1&batchservertelemetry=1&noservertelemetry=1
The Airman was 21 year Brayden Lovan.
I am going to go with being a young 21 year old and a lack of familiarity with using firearms correctly prior to joining the military.
Takes a while to lose that casual attitude about all those safety rules when dealing with things that could kill you that comes with the mental maturity & life experience of being a bit older.
That’s why modern military firearms and weapons all need to be what we used to call “idiot proof”.
Hate to assign blame but looks like the one I have will have to be a safe queen. If it is always unloaded it can’t do much damage. Oh well. Did not like it all that well to begin with.
John Corriea at ASP does a good job of explaining the risks.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jZwfktGAs4c
I don’t use/carry/train on a SIG 320, or SIG anything. Never thought about it.
Well, the parents/wife/family have not yet sued Sig. There may be a happy ending to this tragedy. What really galls me is the merry-go-round surfing of retired military jackasses picking and choosing firearms that someone else’s kid will get killed by. How about current military armorers, some spec ops kids across all of the branches, and a cranky old fart discuss what really works and what needs obtained? We could not possibly do any worse.
If I recall correctly, is not the .277 dia. bullet what the Brits were trying to use post war before Uncle Bully made NATO go to 7.62×51 as standard? Seems like they just did to the good old .270 what they did the 30.06. Shorten and fatten and voila a new round. Out west deer sized game is routinely gotten with 130-150 grain bullets out to 800+ with less 60k psi. Barnes used to make 180 solid copper for use on elk, moose and bears. I think Norma or Speer currently make a 160 or 165 gr round. As for the punching through plates reason, do we not have a 70gn AP round currently in use that is capable of punching through 3+ plates and maybe 4’s up close? Why do we always re-invent the wheel when just a few tweaks will do as you would still need to make new arms to use it?
“… the .277 SIG Fury (6.8x51mm) …”
Nah, it’s the .270 POZZED. 🙂
“Seems like they just did to the good old .270 what they did the 30.06.”
If that’s only what they did, I’d have no problem, BCE would have no problem as well most likely, buuuuuut …
They upped the pressure spec on what is essentially one of many .30-03 variants, which is to say that SIG couldn’t just make a .270 Military which is a near even trade with the .308 or 7.62x51mm pressure spec, but is in fact higher than both those rounds as well as the .270 Winchester it also seems to resemble.
So if you hadn’t noticed that the “ammo drought” back a few years ago had a few exceptions to it, here’s one: you could get plenty of .270 Winchester then.
What I now wonder is whether the big ammo makers made too many bullets for this “SIG Fury” crap and solved that problem by making lots and lots of .270 Winchester brass for it instead of lots of over-engineered .308 type cases that aren’t interchangeable with .308 or 7.62x51mm necked down to 6.8mm.
Just as long as I wasn’t picky about getting what seemed to be mostly lower weights in .270 Winchester, I was doing mostly OK with that caliber and a few other “oddballs”.
But just think of the crap SIG probably had in mind with this weirdo: nobody could resize brass from another caliber to work with it without creating yet more safety problems, and so they’d be in a position to make even more bank by colluding with the big ammo makers.
It’s when you see that’s possibly it along with caliber lock-in (and lock-out as previously described), then it’s not too surprising when you hear about the P320 and its safety problems.
Scaring the shit out of people with safety problems “caused” by unapproved ammo seems to be right in that particular wheel house these days, doesn’t it, especially if it makes a lot of bucks?
And so: not just not buying any new SIGs but also any more old ones.
Sold off the P226, P228, and some other SIGs that were made in West Germany back when the management apparently gave a shit about not getting people killed.
Yeah, fuck every orifice of theirs, preferably with a P320. 🙂
this^^^^^^^
If that wasn’t a rhetorical question, the answer is money.
Bought a holster off the SIG website a few years ago, so I’m on their mailing list. Got a long email tonight about FBI tests, Michigan State Police and the Air Force incident. They also state that the DHS memo halting the use of the P320 was “improperly leaked”. Finally, they ask that if your range, shooting club or training facility bans the use of the P320, to let them know so they can clarify misinformation and provide the truth. Looks like a full-on PR crisis.
I carry an older west german 220, have for 20+ years. The 320 is marketing junk to get the lucrative contract. Cohen……. lets just say look before kimber. A leopard doesn’t change its spots. Can’t honestly say much good about the man. YMMV. Sig’s quality reputation is not the same since it was repurchased in the ~90s I think. Dates fuzzy now but I followed the hoopla at the time. There is more backstory there if you are interested send me an email. Nothing earth shattering just business.
First off…100% BC.
Second, not a striker fired pistol fan. A concealed hammer (ala 1903 Colt Hammerless) would be a much safer design with a superior trigger, especially in a DA pistol with restrike capability on a misfire without racking the slide..
I have been a collector for over 50 years, starting in the military (1974). I shoot every gun I own,
only 1 remains NIB.
I’d like to relate some of my experiences and observations that seem very related to this SIG fiasco.
I have actually shot a steel challenge match at the Epping,NH SIG range. I didn’t see much but the ranges as there were so many people that each stage took hours on a 90% day, after shooting all day, I didn’t want to tour the rest.
I have owned 3 SIGs, BUT they were the last imported GERMAN made P230 , 1 P232 Alloy and 1 P232 SS.
Beautiful, sweet shooting pistols, looked like a slightly larger Walther PP. Fine German CRAFTMANSHIP.
The plant in NH has had problems right from the beginning , recalls, many returned for reliability problems combined with shitty blame the customer service.
My observation has been that a lot of the stellar European firearms cannot/are not being produced in the US with the same quality, as the shareholders would get less profit or as we all have observed the deteriorating work ethic/skill sets of the American worker.
My personal experience: Beretta 92FS made in US. Nice shooting, too big for my small hand and stubby fingers, yet I shot it remarkably well. I might have kept it, wouldn’t have shot it much, but dumped it when I found out that unlike the Italian made pistols controls were machined, the US MIM parts.
Got lucky and sold it with a set of Crimson Trace laser grips I scored at Kittery Trading Post,ME for $30.00 and got about $200.00 more than I paid for it.
Walther pistols made before 2000 are a particular of my collecting, I own a number of models and calibers.
For a few years (Mid 80s-90s) Walthers were made in the US under license by a machine shop in Alabama, including never before SS models. A lot has been said about the quality control, but I have 2 that work great. This company made these for Interarms Corporation and sold under their name until
Interarms went belly up. Buckle up, here’s where it all goes to shit.
Walther shortly after Interarms goes under, gives a license to Smith & Wesson to make their pistols.
The result was a chinese clusterfuckof monumental proportions, INCLUDING a safety recall on something like 7 years of production, shitty overwhelmed lying customer service reps, and turtle fuckin slow turn around on repairs. I’m not a S&W hater, but they fucked the dog on that one.
Walther’s reputation was fucked. They opened a plant in Clinton country (AR) where the new owners produce guns that almost never work right (some never do) requiring multiple trips back to the factory for “repair”. I own Walthers from a Model 8 up to a P88 and almost everything in between, including a rare P5 Compact. Never had a failure with any of them, but read continuous griping about the new US made ones on the Walther forum.
We used to rank as premier firearms makers back in the day (Colt, S&W,Winchester, Marlin,etc).
Now we are not even capable of quality manufacture of designs that have successfully been made in Europe and sold for decades there as well as in the US.
What the actual fuck?
Thoughts?
My thought? I have two Taurus handguns. One semiauto and one revolver and they both have worked great and never let me down.
Why pay Sig prices?
I always found SIGs to be boxy looking, like my 240 Volvo. They didn’t ooze beauty even the German made ones with the exception of the original P210 and the P230/P232.
At least the German guns worked.
sounds like you citizens are having problems getting into the acceptance phase of the New World out there. pity. guess you didnt learn the lesson from Conjob 19. spoiler alert….it gets waaay worse. get a job. lose 100 lb and quit being white trash.
American quality control has sucked balls for DECADES! I’ve personally observed it in multiple fields. Automotive, appliances, government service, lawn equipment… The list of shit that America has fucked up by the numbers is pretty near endless. The one thing that’s going well is tyranny and government corruption. America aces that industrial field. And those two are an industry in America…
As far as why we have the SIG DoD relationship? I’m not an insider but I’d bet on greed. Plain, unvarnished, human greed. And that’s probably why they’re (connected people) looking for new equipment. New patents, new calibers and new payoffs…
If you’re gambling, don’t bet on Queens and Jacks, bet on the guy across from you being greedy. Bet on base human nature, you’ll win more often than not!
When you grok THIS, you will be fully based.
Many of the Sig parts are made in India.
SIG’s Hammerli Trailside .22’s are pieces of shit with nice triggers, bad frame machining and dangerous safeties. 320’s are just plain bizarre and from what I have witnessed, they don’t reliably go into battery. Piece of shit. SIG 556R. Unreliable piece of shit, but looks really cool. Like an STG 90 with AK mags.
The new 6.8×51 supposedly is $3 a round. I will take 10 rounds of 5.56 over any one round of whizzbang almost every time. The XM7 is as heavy as a Garand. the basic load is half of the 5.56 for the rifle and squad weapon variant. Did I hear it has a 12 inch barrel?
SIG hasn’t made anything I would take to a gunfight since the P226.
Once again, .mil has defecated in its mess kit. It is my understanding Beretta was ready to modify and upgrade the M92 to fit the needs of .mil. Beretta was rebuffed. I carried a Gen2 Glock 19 for the last 10 years of my service as a Peace Officer. It never failed me, BUT(!) I also carried a BUG (S&W mdl 37 .38 spl). Being retired, my choices have changed, and right now in the summer heat, a pocket .38 is my go-to gun.
When I read this and watch You Tube about how .mil is, once again, stepping in it with the 320 and the new whiz-bang .277 caliber rifle, I just shake my head. Since you-know-what rolls down hill, it will be the PFCs and E-4s who will suck the canal water through the pumpkin stems over these two very expensive white elephants. And riddle me this: How are all of our GI Janes going to handle this hard-hitting heavy rifle? When I was in the Army Reserves, it was all the crack troopers could do to handle their full-sized M-16s. Pvt. Ivan and Pvt. Hu Flung Dung will have a lot of battlefield pick-ups. Sad and stupid.
+1 for “suck canal water through the pumpkin stems”
Whoever overlooked or ignored the chamber pressure should have a hot barrel run up their ass.